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9e in a falcon

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9e in a falcon

Post  john87 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Hi all,

Does anyone know if a three speed 9E will fit in a falcon 81 frame. Ok, i know it will fit, but will the different angles outer cases foul anything, or will it be ok but just look odd??

Second question..

I have a rear sprocket here. It is the same central diameter as the usual one for the narrow 110044 [i think it is rear chain], and the same number and PCD bolts, BUT it is a thicker sprocket for the wider, bit like modern "428" but presumably not, chain used on some other model or make??

john..

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sprocket

Post  piston 197 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:51 pm

John, the Falcon 87 and 81 use the wider chain, the Falcon 70 and 74 use the narrower chain, possibly you have one from a 81 or 87 ??

The 9E engine will go straight into the Falcon 81 frame, the only thing you may have to change is the carb manifold as the 10E one is straight for the upright fitment and the 9E one is angled for a sloping fitment. There is no difference between the 2 engines other than the styling on the outer cases, only the carb manifold is a different component, so if fitting a 9E into a Falcon 81 the manifold from the 10E is required to get the carb upright again

JH
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Falcon 74/81

Post  FB vincent on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:04 am

Sorry if I sound like a rivet counter, but the 48T rear sprocket for the Falcon 74 and 81 lists the same part No. 002025 in the 1957/1958 Spares List. I think the wider rear chain was only used on the AMC engined Falcon 87. Sandy

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Yes but,no but !

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:19 am

The FB Falcon 87 rear sprocket has 50 Teeth

Try a 1959 Falcon 81 spares parts list
changes for 1959 included new smooth profile front guard, 415SA headlight switch and different shell to suit, wider chain, wider front and 48 tooth rear sprocket, and possibly other differences ?

JH
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Fb Falcon

Post  FB vincent on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:25 am

piston 197 wrote:The FB Falcon 87 rear sprocket has 50 Teeth

Try a 1959 Falcon 81 spares parts list
changes for 1959 included new smooth profile front guard, 415SA headlight switch and different shell to suit, wider chain, wider front and 48 tooth  rear sprocket, and possibly other differences ?

JH

All interesting info, I was not aware of these changes during the FB 81 production run.

My 1958 Falcon 81 has the narrower chain and sprockets, as per my quote above.

Sandy

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another change for 1959

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:40 am

I was aware from your post you were "not aware" but just for the record the 1959 bike with prefix AN was also offered in two tone Green/white and Red, and in at least one recorded case Red/Green like the Light Cruiser 79 option although I have never actually seen one, or records of one being made
These have identifier letters after the frame No ie, "W" and "R" for Two tone Green/White and Red options

The 4 position 415SA switch was unique to FB and James for 1959,and used on Plover 78 with rectified lighting, James Cadet equivalent, Falcon 81,and James Captain K7, the switch is the same as the common one used on BSA etc. but has 4 positions rather than the normal 3, it was never used on any other bike and no other years .
I do have one if anyone needs one ?

JH
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Sprockets!!

Post  john87 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:06 am

Ahhh...

Now, i have a 10E motor, number 662B [so from a FB] that was presumably fitted to a Falcon 81... Narrow sprocket..

I have a complete Falcon 81 that i am 99% certain has its original engine in it... Narrow sprocket....

I have yet another Falcon 81 that came with what i presume is its original engine... Narrow sprocket.

I also have another engine, this time a 9E [number 078D] BUT.. this has a wide sprocket...

I also have TWO new sprockets that i got from Villiers services that were sold as suitable for a Falcon 81.. Narrow sprockets...

So, i would say that a Falcon 81 has narrow sprockets.. [But see later!!..]

My bikes all have the "AN" frame number, all are the "white" ones, complete with the "W" suffix, AND are ALL registered as 1959 ones. All have the three position light switch and the "old" type front mudguard..

BUT, being as how JH is the absolute authority on these things, and has forgotten more then any of us will ever know, could it be that my bikes are all actually 1958 ones then?? even though they have the "AN" number?? I would think that when they did the model change all these things were done in a haphazard way and you simply got what you were given!!

As usual though, JH is on to something here!! The wide sprocket i was referring to does indeed have 50 teeth, and is therefore, i would assume, as JH says, from a Falcon 87..

Moving on.. My 9E, it has the engine number 078D. Any idea what that would have originally been fitted to??

Thanks all

john...

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Engine coding

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:24 am

John 078D is not in my list of Villiers engine coding, but it is nowhere near complete, 077D and 079D are in the listings

I too have come across 1959 Falcon 81's with the earlier front guard and the Villiers/Lucas lighting switch, so I assume it was a gradual change throughout the year ( 1959) as the older parts were used up ?
If you google 1959 Francis Barnett Falcon images" the first bike that come up is a nice one restored Reg. No USJ337 this bears out what I say, it has the earlier peaked guard, but the later 415SA switch and shell
Next picture up Reg. No EM 8831 has the smooth front guard and the early switch

Just a case of using up parts from earlier machines as the gradual cut in of the new parts took over,
all falcon 87's had the smooth non-peaked guard, the Cruiser 80 started off with the earlier peaked guard and changed in 1959 to the smooth one to standardise all models.

All 200 and 250cc Amc bikes had the wider chain

JH
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Interesting stuff!!

Post  john87 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:44 am

Hi John,

I read the engine number wrong! It is 076D [and then 4687]

I cannot find any lists that say what this would have been fitted to, the nearest i game was to google "villiers 076D" which came up with an andvert from an auction house for a greeves "scottish" trials bike.. Whether this means my engine is out of one of these i have no idea!!

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18221/lot/434/?category=list

john..

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Engine Fitment

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:11 am

076D was a Villiers 9e engine supplied to a firm called Aero Controls ?? googling Aero Controls I can only find reference to a firm formed in 1984 in Seattle, so presumably not this one !

Possibly not supplied for motorcycle application, but nothing else springs to mind unless it was for an engine for radio controlled drone/target plane or something similar ? they did use Vincent Picador engines which were Vincent engines without gearboxes for Target planes around WWII

JH
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Re: 9e in a falcon

Post  Kim on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:13 am

piston 197 wrote:076D was a Villiers 9e engine supplied to a firm called Aero Controls ??  googling Aero Controls I can only find reference to a firm formed in 1984 in Seattle, so presumably not this one !

Possibly not supplied for motorcycle application, but nothing else springs to mind unless it was for an engine for radio controlled drone/target plane or something similar ? they did use Vincent Picador engines which were Vincent engines without gearboxes for Target planes around WWII

JH

Aero Controls made villiers powered go carts in the early 60's
http://www.britishhistorickartclub.com/2016/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/15-June-1961-Aero-kart-MKIII-Villiers-9E-4-speed.pdf
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My Bike!!!!

Post  john87 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:32 am

You just beat me to it!!!!

Looks like i have something of a rare beast then!!!

The Falcon that was given away for free on the forum last week, i am the lucky owner!! It came totally stripped down and i have spent the last few days rebuilding it. It came with TWO engines, the original 10E that has at some time blown up and stuck the conrod through the cases [i am going to rebuild it] and a 9E motor that was used in it. This motor must have been taked from a kart then!!!

Thanks all so much!!

I have learnt LOADS about my new bike!!

I will post a link to some pictures later!!

john..

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Kart engine

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:13 pm

The Kart engine was a 9E supersports, had a higher compression head, long ally inlet manifold and an Amal 389 carburettor, there was a blanking plate over the depression in the gearbox top as was not needed with the Amal carb, was supposed to produce a couple of more horsepower

JH
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Kart engine

Post  john87 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:27 pm

Depends what model you had, I looked up the "Aero Controls" people you said about and found they were in Northampton. As well as aeroplane bits they made karts. I managed to find a road test for them that gives details of the different ones they did. You could have the "supersports" one but they did standard engined ones too!

Here is a link to the thing;

http://www.britishhistorickartclub.com/2016/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/15-June-1961-Aero-kart-MKIII-Villiers-9E-4-speed.pdf

The supersports one was the top of the range!!

john...

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Kart engine

Post  piston 197 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Villiers did a 100cc Kart engine ( 98 actually) as well, it was the 4.7BHP 9F, it used the S19 carburettor on a ported barrel with a high comp head
The usual fitment in autocycle/motorcycle was 1F,2F,4F and 6F although I believe some of the Kart 9F engines were fitted to the Stella scooter made in Suffolk
There is a good article by Mark Daniels quoting the use of 9F engines in the Stella
on www.icenicam.org.uk

JH
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