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1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

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1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Algernon on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:04 am

Hi guys my name is James Pelleboer and I live in South Africa. I recently purchased a FB trials bike from supposedly 1958 for a restoration project.

problem is I dont have any wiring diagrams, exploded views or any information what so ever. Could anyone be of assistance. The person I bought it from said it has a 250cc 2 stroke AMC engine, has anyone got an owners manual?

The bike seems to be fairly rare judging by what I can find on the internet
frame B6T14896 or BCT14896
Engine 25T 12218

I would post pictures but there is some silly rule preventing me from doing so

regards , James

Algernon

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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Algernon on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:13 am

maybe i can send the pics to a mod and he can upload them?

Algernon

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trials bike

Post  piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:16 am

BCT is Sept 1959 to Aug 1960 FB trials model 83, normally supplied without lights, but lights available as an optional extra, ignition is energy transfer without a battery and lights are direct from engine output
JH
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:48 am

The Trials 83 does not have its own Instruction manual. It is incorporated into the Cruiser 80/84 Instruction manual. There are 3 pages in the back of the book dealing with the Scrambler 82 and the trials 83. otherwise they are the same as the 80/84.
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same as cruiser 80 ?

Post  piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:29 am

The trials model is a completely different beast
Different frame
different forks
different tank
different seat
different exhaust
different gear ratios
different head
different crankshaft
different electrics and alternator
different exhaust system etc. etc.

In fact they only share basic engine cases, piston, carburettor body ( different jetting and air filter) clutch and gearshafts everything else is unique to the trials bike although they do share the front 5" hub and rear 6" hub with other models
JH
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:52 am

piston 197 wrote:The trials model is a completely different beast
Different frame
different forks
different tank
different seat
different exhaust
different gear ratios
different head
different crankshaft
different electrics and alternator
different exhaust system etc. etc.

In fact they only share basic engine cases, piston, carburettor body ( different jetting and air filter) clutch and gearshafts everything else is unique to the trials bike although they do share the front 5" hub and rear 6" hub with other models
JH
No argument here. I merely wished to point out that the Data sheet at the front covers 80/84/82/83 models and the other differences (Most of what you mentioned is listed) are briefly described in the back pages. My copy seems to be missing the 82/83 wiring diagram (if it was ever there)
I'm also not 100% sure if there was ever an instruction manual specifically for the comp models.


Last edited by Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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trials manual

Post  piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:00 am

Kim , you are right in your thinking , there was only ever a supplement for the trials bike and an expanded view of the frame, forks etc. I do believe I have seen a wiring diagram, but cannot remember where, from memory the headlight switch is the rare four position wipac one ?
JH
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:19 am

After reading the section on the comp models. ( I just can't help myself sometimes) I notice that they say the Piston fitted to the comp models have no pressure rings and the rings are entirely different from those used on the cruiser models.
I thought that might be important if they are looking at a rebuild.
Sorry I now notice that he has listed a "25T" engine so presumably it has been repowered as the original was a "25c" (according to the book anyway)


Last edited by Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : More info required.)
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piston rings

Post  piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:23 am

Kim , yes this applies to the 25S engined scrambles comp models, but the trials 25C engine models run the same ring set up as the road bike, perhaps the higher compression and higher revving scrambler had to be revved straight out of the crate and could not have a running in period and this was AMC's attempt at making it more reliable ??
JH


Last edited by piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:35 am

piston 197 wrote:Kim , yes this applies to the 20S engined scrambles comp models, but the trials 20C engine models run the same ring set up as the road bike, perhaps the higher compression and higher revving scrambler had to be revved straight out of the crate and could not have a running in period and this was AMC's attempt at making it more reliable ??
JH
Hi John. I'm not trying to be a know it all but the book list the 25S and 25C respectively for those models.

The bit I'm talking about is worded as follows.

The same type of cylinder is fitted to the cruisers and the Trials 83 but the bore size on the scrambles 82 is fractionally larger. The pistons fitted to the competition machines do not have pressure rings and the piston rings are entirely different from those used on the normal cruiser models.

I just assumed that when they said "Competition" they meant both.
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editted previuos post

Post  piston 197 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:09 am

Yes when you approach 60 sometimes there is an error between thinking and doing the 20 should have read 25
25T road bike
25S scrambles
25C trials
there was never a 20C or 20S just a (20T and 20TS)

your above post re states what I said, the scrambles 25S engined machine had to run flat out from the crate with no running in, hence bigger bore clearance and no expanders under the rings to prevent seizure ( different piston number to accommodate this whereas the comp trials engines and road bikes share the same piston/rings)
JH
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thanks

Post  Algernon on Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:23 am

my thanks for the information guys, but does anyone have a PDF copy of the 80/84 engine and workshop manual. It would make the restoration go much faster

appreciated

Algernon

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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:36 pm

Algernon wrote:my thanks for the information guys, but does anyone have a PDF copy of the 80/84 engine and workshop manual. It would make the restoration go much faster

appreciated

Hi James, If you have no luck getting a PDF there is a reproduction hard copy available here.....

80/84/trials83 Instruction Book.   <----- Click here

Click the link above and scroll down the page. Its about halfway down.
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  woodenhead on Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:41 pm

Hi
I have a 25C fitted in my cruiser80 while I rebuild my 25T. There are couple of differences  firstly the Barrel does not have the lugs cast in to bolt the carb cover to, secondly the peg in the Piston for the rings is the full depth of the groove and the rings are flat ended not stepped like the standard.
It had the correct Wipac altenator  and the wide ratio gears.
I don't know if this is a 25C with a 25S barrel or if its correct.
I have a wiring diagram if anybody wants one
Regards
Mike d.
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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Algernon on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:03 pm

I would really appreciate a wiring diagram. Also another question does the bike need a battery to start because it does have a battery box.

Algernon

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electrics

Post  piston 197 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:54 pm

Normally the alternator is the energy transfer type and starting is without a battery, but still with a coil same as BSA C15T and S comp models, but obviously it could be wired for direct battery ignition , but a rectified charging system would be needed to charge the battery.
JH
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Photos

Post  Algernon on Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:25 pm













thanks again for all the replys guys

Algernon

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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Algernon on Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:27 pm

Im not sure why its cutting the pictures in half but if you click on them or download them they should work

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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:55 pm

Algernon wrote:Im not sure why its cutting the pictures in half but if you click on them or download them they should work
It works better if you resize the pictures before posting them. Try 800x600 or 640x480.
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Trials 83 specific pages from 80/84 manual

Post  Kim on Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:10 pm

I have left these large so they can be downloaded without losing any more clarity. There is no real info on the first page so I didn't bother taking another photo. I hope this helps. If you have any trouble PM me and I will happily email them too you.









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a great thanks

Post  Algernon on Sat May 09, 2015 12:15 pm

Thank you to everyone who has sent me help

a big thanks to Kim and Peter Dunford for all the diagrams. Today was spent sanding in preparation for spray painting next weekend

regards james

Algernon

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help with oil

Post  Algernon on Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:28 pm

I have progressed far into the rebuild, the time has come to put oil in. On my triumph there is a hole on either side to put oil in. On the FB there is only a hole on the gear lever side so how do I get oil into the clutch plate side. Does the oil overflow from the one side to the other?

Algernon

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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

Post  Kim on Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:34 pm

Algernon wrote:I have progressed far into the rebuild, the time has come to put oil in. On my triumph there is a hole on either side to put oil in. On the FB there is only a hole on the gear lever side so how do I get oil into the clutch plate side. Does the oil overflow from the one side to the other?
Remove the name plate (filling hole is under it) and the drain hole plug (some would call it the oil level indicator hole) and fill (with the bike upright) until the fluid runs out of the drain hole.
A lot of people use transmission fluid instead of oil to reduce clutch slippage.
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Some pics on the progress

Post  Algernon on Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:31 pm








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Re: 1958 Francis Barnett Trials ?

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